Is That Legal?

Remember that Ruth Benedict's research on the "Japanese mind" was conducted, in part, by interviewing internees (also watching movies, reading literature and I think she might have interviewed a POW or two): the concept of race and nation as essential biological characteristics, rather than culturally contextual ones, was immensely powerful.

Reading the last paragraph is like reading Republican talking points about Democrats. And consider the irony of those statements. (Eric -- is this true irony?)

By way, I sent a letter to Senator Arlin Specter on the nuclear filibuster fight. The note said that in 1944, SCOTUS voted that the Constitution allows the government to round-up people based on their alienage and put them in concentration camps. So, I said, what's to stop a 51-Senator majority, lead by a rabidly anti-semitic President, from stacking the Court with "right-thinking" judges who'll follow the Constitution, then issuing an executive order rounding up all Jews (including those on SCOTUS), putting them concentration camps, and then watching SCOTUS cite Korematsu v. US as legal authority.

Some people talk about Korematsu and the whole Japanese-concentration-camp internment epidsode as a once-in-a-country's-history mistake.

HELLO!!!! 50-50 senate votes with DICK Cheney-esque types ("$600 billion annual deficits don't matter") casting the deciding ballot in favor of "security." No filibusters allowed.

Round up the Jews. Take their property. And it's all legal, 51-50 with SCOTUS in tow.

Well said, Marc. I was going to post something similar. We live in perilous times indeed.

Certainly one of the most outrageous claims of the pro-internment crowd is that anti-Japanese racism had nothing to do with the Japanese-American internment. How that squares with the exclusion laws that prohibited post-1924 immigration and Issei naturalization, not to mention the newspapers and magazines of the era (including some outrageous anti-Japanese-American articles in Life magazine complete with pictures showing how to identify the "enemy").

But this was hardly limited to one party. FDR clearly showed racism in his writings on the subject. Earl Warren (Republican governor of California and later "liberal" U.S. Supreme Court chief justice) had a large role in the work of Western governors to see that the Japanese-Americans were removed from their states. Because of FDR's role, many Nisei became staunch Republicans (notwithstanding the work of Republican governors). My Mother-in-law is one of them, still burning with FDR's betrayal over sixty years later.

So it's hard to draw direct connections into the party politics of today. Yes, the pro-internment forces are on the Republican side this time. But if things ever actually came to that, I suspect that support would be shamefully bipartisan.

Um, Marc, Frank, do you have wind of some secret plan that the Bush Administration is preparing to round up the Jews and murder them? Or did I miss something?

Says modus potus:

"Certainly one of the most outrageous claims of the pro-internment crowd is that anti-Japanese racism had nothing to do with the Japanese-American internment..."

No, you misrepresent that position. I don't know of anyone who has studied the issue and concluded that the so-called "internment" was justified who denies that there was racial prejudice against resident Japanese aliens and Japanese Americans at the time of Pearl Harbor.

But the fact that racism existed doesn't mean that racism was the reason for the "internment. On the contrary, had "racism" been the reason for the "internment" why was it that the thousands of ethnic Japanese not living in the West Coast military areas were not bothered at all?

The reality was that there was an abundance of military intelligence which led to the decision to evacuate/relocate the West Coast Japanese for prudent military reasons. It's all on the record and available for anyone to see. But unfortunately, many present-day critics of the "internment" persist in viewing WWII realities through the prism of their current socio/political agendas. As a result such ideologues have confused race with enemy nationality while remaining otherwise uninformed (and determined to remain so) about the military reasons behind the evacuation decision.

FWIW the U.S. seriously did explore reopening the Tule Lake camp to incarcerate Communists in the later 1940s.

Hopwood,

Actually, given the politics of the region, the fact that only Western region Japanese-Americans were interned tends to support the theory of racism rather than refuting it.

I find the "military reasons" wholly unconvincing. It would be as easy if not easier to cherry-pick evidence to support incarceration of, say, East-coast German-Americans. Of course, the latter didn't happen, so we don't find apologists such as yourself sifting the historical record in a quest to formulate post-hoc justifications for it.

Martha,

I'd assume that the Communists they would have interned would have at least each had a cursory (though not necessarily valid) investigation before they were placed there. Also, I doubt that entire families would be interned. Thus the correct analogy would be the German- and Italian-Americans who were interned during the war (mostly by the DOJ, if I'm not mistaken) and not the Japanese-Americans, even though Tule Lake was used for the latter.

Potus (presumably not the President of the United States)says:

"Actually, given the politics of the region, the fact that only Western region Japanese-Americans were interned tends to support the theory of racism rather than refuting it."

Nonsense. How about elaborating on that bizarre theory. Tell us how it was the politics of the region and not military intelligence which caused the War Department to be concerned about the unidentifioed espionage agents who had been revealed by the Japanese government itself to be active along the West Coast.

"I find the "military reasons" wholly unconvincing."

What do you find unconvincing about the numerous Army and Navy intelligence reports and intercepted Japanese consular messages found in abundance in the archive? What was unconvincing about the following congressional testimony by former Asst. SecWar, John J. McCloy?
"It was a fact that the (Pearl Harbor) attack was supplemented by information giving...clear knowledge of the existence of subversive Japanese agencies designed to operate in this country to meet further attacks or subversions..." [Statement before Congressional Sub-Committee of the Judiciary--June 21, 1984]

"It would be as easy if not easier to cherry-pick evidence to support incarceration of, say, East-coast German-Americans. Of course, the latter didn't happen, so we don't find apologists such as yourself sifting the historical record in a quest to formulate post-hoc justifications for it."

It happened to thousands of Germans and German-Americans. Italians also. Just not as a group inasmuch as it was logistically impossible. Also such people were better assimilated into main-stream America, and the cultural association of these populations with the homeland was neglible vis-a-vis that of the Japanese. [For further enlightenment I suggest you consult "Undue Process: The Untold Story of America's German Alien Interees"--Arnold Krammer, Professor of History, Texas A&M]

Hopwood,

Japanese-Americans in Hawaii were a greater intelligence threat than those on the West coast, particularly where naval operations were concerned. Yet only the West coast Japanese-Americans were interned. It's impossible to explain the difference without comparing the racism of the military commanders and politicians who ruled the respective areas.

There was plenty of intelligence showing aggressive recruitment and active exchanges of substantial amounts of information and even money between the Germans and the German-American community. The very intelligence you cite shows how unsuccessful the Japanese were at obtaining information and cooperation when compared to that of the Germans. And the fact that German-Americans were better assimilated made them the greater threat both due to greater access and less suspicion on the part of the surrounding community. Claims that there was negligible cultural association with the homeland are laughable; there are parts of the U.S. where German has been the primary language for over 200 years. Extensive Bund participation is well-documented. This is not to impugn the patriotism of the vast majority of persons of German ancestry (of which I am one). But, then again, I wouldn't impugn that of the vast majority of persons of Japanese ancestry, either.

You seem to have missed my mention of German- and Italian-American internees -- I'm well aware of them. For the most part, there was at least a semblance of due process involved, and there was no wholesale incarceration of entire communities, or even of families. There is simply no comparison to the wholly race-based internment of Japanese-Americans. And it was race-based; your claims to the contrary are based on the thinnest of smoke screens.

potus writes:

"Japanese-Americans in Hawaii were a greater intelligence threat than those on the West coast, ... Yet only the West coast Japanese-Americans were interned. It's impossible to explain the difference without comparing the racism of the military commanders and politicians who ruled the respective areas."

I'm glad you admit that they were an intelligence threat but apparently you haven't heard that Hawaii was immediately placed under martial law? No Japanese national could travel, change residence or occupation without approval, nor buy or sell liquor, be at large during blackout, assemble in groups, or be employed in restrictred areas. Nor could they or American citizens of Japanese, German, or Italian ancestry possess firearms, explosives, ammunition, or weapons of any kind. In addition, a curfew applied to all residents, civil courts were supplanted by military courts, grand juries and trials by jury prohibited, and criminal law administered by the military. And there was more. No such restrictions could be applied to the West Coast of the U.S. as they would have crippled war production activities.

"There was plenty of intelligence showing aggressive recruitment and active exchanges of substantial amounts of information and even money between the Germans and the German-American community."

Care to be more specific? In any event, the size of this community precluded handling in the same way as it was feasible to handle the Japanese community. Common sense in wartime dictates that one does not abandon what reasonably can be done because something else can not be done in the same way.

"The very intelligence you cite shows how unsuccessful the Japanese were at obtaining information and cooperation when compared to that of the Germans."

Care to be more specific? Which specific intelligence did I cite causes you to make such a statement?

"And the fact that German-Americans were better assimilated made them the greater threat both due to greater access and less suspicion on the part of the surrounding community."

That's an interesting guess. I thought I'd heard them all but I never heard that one.

"Claims that there was negligible cultural association with the homeland are laughable; there are parts of the U.S. where German has been the primary language for over 200 years."

And where would those places be, huh? Be specfic.
In no case was there any program involving German or Italian Americans to compare with the practice of the Japanese in sending their American-born children in large numbers to Japan in their formative years to obtain primary and part of their secondary education. These were the Kibei, many of whom returned to the U.S. more Japanese than American and were among the militant pro-Japan subversives who ended up at the Tule Lake Segregation camp during WWII.

"I'm well aware of (German and Italian internees).For the most part, there was at least a semblance of due process involved, and there was no wholesale incarceration of entire communities, or even of families."

Sure there was. Whole families of Germans, Italians, and Japanese sat side by side at the same family DOJ camp at Crystal City, Texas. You should really try to learn the difference between the "relocation" program and the quite different "internment" program. For being interned next to the Germans and Italians at Crystal City, the Japanese got $20,000 and an apology, the Germans and Italians, nothing, nada, zip. No racism there, right?

"There is simply no comparison to the wholly race-based internment of Japanese-Americans. And it was race-based; your claims to the contrary are based on the thinnest of smoke screens."

Pure emotionalism on your part. No proof whatsoever. And for your enlightenment, only enemy aliens were "interned" and then only after individual hearings after being arrested on security charges by the FBI. All that in accordance with long-standing law as to enemy aliens in wartime. Evacuation and relocation of the West Coast Japanese did not follow that procedure and was not "internment."

Hey thanks you guys you helped me write my debate for school on this subject.