Is That Legal?

That's a terrific find -- any chance you could scan it and post a digital image?

By the way, isn't it funny that W.J. Hopshit has nothing to say about your archival posts?

Amazing to see no comments on this. Perhaps you should drive on over to Malkin's home and deliver this. On second thought maybe she just needs directions to the archive, perhaps she had trouble finding it while writing her book...

Prof Muller writes:

"It is often maintained by those who defend the Japanese American internment that the decision to take mass action against Japanese Americans regardless of their citizenship, while taking no such mass action against Italian and German Americans, was grounded in military necessity."

From a military standpoint it was primarily a matter of logistics. In 1940 there were more than 1,237,000 persons of German birth living in the U.S. and more than that number of Italian birth, to say nothing of the American-born children of both. Mass exclusion was impossible with numbers like that. The Individual Exclusion Program was the only practical method for use in the case of the Germans and Italians.

But there were other reasons, too. The chief among them being that the ethnic German and Italian populations, unlike the Japanese, were widely assimilated and highly represented in the economic structure of the country including in defense industries. In addition, thousands were anti-facist and Jewish refugees. (See Prof. Arnold Krammer's "Undue Process: The Untold Story of America's German Alien Internees.")

FDR was reflecting the reality of the existing circumstances when he stated:
"The control of alien enemies seems to me to be primarily a civilian matter except of course in the case of the Japanese mass evacuation on the Pacific Coast...I hear the evacuation program on the West Coast is working well."

If it is meant to suggest that this newly discovered memo by FDR is some sort of "racist" manifesto, forget it.

Ahh, he did not let me down. Good to hear the view from the bunker.

"It is often maintained by those who defend the Japanese American internment that the decision to take mass action against Japanese Americans regardless of their citizenship, while taking no such mass action against Italian and German Americans, was grounded in military necessity."

This is deceptive. Italians and Germans WERE treated similarly, though to my knowledge (and this is what makes your sentence technically correct) no American citizens of Italian or German descent. This begs the question, however, does Mr. Muller think the detetention of non-citizens was justified by military necessity?

What I'm amazed by is the excuse that it was logistically impossible to intern that many Germans/Italians, as if to say that if the Japanese had only been more numerous, maybe they would not have suffered the inhumane fate of being presumed guilty and shuttled off. Spectacular reasoning.

Why couldn't the individual program used for the Germans and the Italians be used for Japanese? The only reason why it couldn't be is if there is tacit assumption of such large-scale treason and disloyalty among the Japanese that it was essential that we round them up, and weed them out later. Seeing as there was no real evidence to support this on the scale the program was done, the only other reason has to be a racist, and tacit assumption that the Japanese were inherently disloyal, based on blood and ethnicity, and nothing else.

Pico, you don't know what you're talking about. German and Italian aliens were not treated similarly to Japanese aliens in World War II.

No German and Italian aliens were treated similarly?

eric -- have you ever considered researching the treatment of ethnic japanese in the rest of the americas during wwii? i remember from living in brasil that they had some type of internment program (and i think a policy of forced integration for german communities, but my memory is sketchier on that). there's an interesting bit at http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/e0fc4bfa72adf208802566800038ca0d?Opendocument

German and Italian aliens were given hearings in connection with their detention. Japanese aliens were not.

But they were detained, were they not? Why try to avoid mentioning it!

Yes, there were detained Germans and Italians. Of course there were.

But you said, earlier: "Italians and Germans WERE treated similarly, though to my knowledge (and this is what makes your sentence technically correct) no American citizens of Italian or German descent."

That is false. Some Italian aliens and some German aliens were detained with hearings. All Japanese aliens were detained without them. You were wrong. That's what I was pointing out to you.

Professor Muller incorrectly states:

"German and Italian aliens were given hearings in connection with their detention. Japanese aliens were not." Posted by: Eric Muller at May 4, 2005 05:19 PM

Not so. ALL enemy aliens interned were given hearings before they were interned, including the Japanese. Most current historical revisionists keep making the same mistake as made in the statement quoted above either through ignorance of the facts or because it is part of their agenda NOT to differentiate between "internment" and "relocation" in an attempt to make the relocation program appear worse than it was.

Enemy alien Japanese who were evacuated to WRA relocation centers were NOT interned. Thus they did not receive individual hearings. BUT enemy alien Germans, Italians, and Japanese who were arrested by the FBI on security charges and were interned in DOJ (INS) internment camps administered by the Army were ALL (including the Japanese) given individual hearings before enemy alien control boards before such internment.

The following is from the First Quartely Report, War Relocation Authority (WRA), March 18 to June 30, 1942:
"A sharp distinction should be drawn at all times between residents of relocation centers--even the aliens--and...civilian internees. The aliens residing at relocation centers...have simply been evacuated as a group, in the interest of military security, from specific military areas...Civilian internees are aliens of enemy nationality---Japanese, German, or Italian---who have been apprehended by the FBI and found guilty by enemy alien control boards of acts or intentions against the national security. They are confined in internment camps administered by the Army and not quartered at relocation centers."

Hopwood, the 40-some thousand Issei who were detained in assembly centers in the summer of 1942 and then in WRA "relocation centers" for several years thereafter were never given hearings of any kind. (This is also true of their 60- or 70-some thousand American-born citizen children.)

All detentions of German and Italian aliens were accompanies by hearings. American citizens of German and Italian ancestry were never targeted for detention at all (though some minors did end up in detention with their parents, and, as I understand it, a small number of naturalized citizens were also detained).

We are familiar with your claim that the multi-year stay behind barbed wire in the WRA relocation centers for Japanese Americans was not "detention," so please do not bother splitting that particular semantic hair.

Prof. Muller:

You still don't get it. If you re-read my post you will note that I acknowledged the fact that no hearings were given to those who went to relocation centers. But those Japanese who were actually "interned" (detained if you want to use that word) were given individual hearings. And BTW, not all Germans and Italians who were evacuated or detained without being interned received hearings. Just those interned did, and so did the Japanese who were interned. You seem determined to ignore the fact that the internment program was not the same as the relocation program.

Not at all. I recognize that there were two programs, one whose legal designation was "internment" that involved certain Japanese, German, and Italian enemy aliens, and another whose euphemistic designation was "relocation" that affected both Japanese aliens and American citizens of Japanese ancestry.

It is you who are determined to ignore that the euphemistically labelled "relocation" program was actually a program of lawless confinement.

OK. I'm glad you recognize that there were two programs. Accordingly, you should now recognize that under the "internment" program, all internees received hearings and that included the Japanese. We disagree on whether the relocation program was or was not "lawless." I fail to see how a program which the Supreme Court ruled was constitutional is "lawless." Perhaps you can explain that some time, and not by citing the Coram Nobis cases which, as you know, did not change the orignal SC decision which still stands.

Hopwood writes: "I fail to see how a program which the Supreme Court ruled was constitutional is 'lawless.'"

This kind of absolute faith in the judiciary is deeply moving. I'm sure he feels the same way about Roe v. Wade and Lawrence v. Texas.

The most damming thing against all those arguments that the round-up of all Japanese Americans, citizen and non-citizen alike, on the West Coast was really a matter of wartime necesitty and not that of hysteria and racism is that the Japanese American population of Haiwai was left alone. If the Japanese Americans on the West Coast were by reason of their ancestry a security threat, then why were not the Japanese Americans in Haiwai, where a Japanese attack had actually occurred not rounded up as well? Could it be that because one-third of Haiwai's population was Japanese-American, it would have been pretty impratical and a real drag on the war effort in a critical location to do?!

Ah, Mein Herr Hopwood, so the important point is that it was all Perfectly LEGAL! Glad to know you have been reassured about this.
"the original SC decision which still stands".
That is the most scary consequence of the Internment of the Japanese-Americans, that it was and still is considered constiutionally legal. The McCarran-Walther Internal Security Act of 1952 authorized Concentration Camps. I believe the relevant section is still law. Between the SC decisions on Internment, the 1952 Internal Security Act and now the post 9-11 Patriot Act, their is a very firm legal ground for Concentration Camps here in the US as long as the Administration in power picks the group(s) to be rounded up with care, that it small enough and unpopular enough not to create major reaction to it.

David All writes:

"...If the Japanese Americans on the West Coast were by reason of their ancestry a security threat, then why were not the Japanese Americans in Haiwai, where a Japanese attack had actually occurred not rounded up as well?..."

Roundup was contemplated at first but authorities soon realized that that it was impractical from a logistics standpoint to segregate and confine or evacuate to the mainland such a large number of ethnic Japanese. Instead, martial law, which had been instituted in Hawaii immediately after the December 7th 1941 attack, was relied upon to control security. Hundreds of rules and regulations were imposed and Hawaii was ruled by military proclamations. Curfews were initiated. Mail and the media censored, phone calls monitored, sales of liquor banned, civilians registered, fingerprinted, and required to carry ID at all times. Persons of German, Italian, and Japanese ancestry prohibited from gathering in groups or possessing firearms, radios, or cameras. Habeas corpus was suspended and civil courts supplanted by military courts. Persons of German, Italian, ancestry considered the most dangerous were arrested and interned. Martial law with its numerous constraints was not imposed on the U.S. West Coast primarily because it would have seriously hampered war production activities.

"Ah, Mein Herr Hopwood, so the important point is that it was all Perfectly LEGAL! Glad to know you have been reassured about this. 'the original SC decision which still stands'. That is the most scary consequence of the Internment of the Japanese-Americans, that it was and still is considered constiutionally legal.

No, the important point, which seems to have escaped you, was to win the war. From the tone of your post it is my guess that had it all been up to you, you would have been quite comfortable with enemy aliens and dual citizens (Japanese and American) being free to roam about at will, the Alien Enemy Act of 1798 ignored, and civil rights for enemy nationals be given top priority over national security, the consequences be damned.
Fortunately we had civilian and military leaders at the time who took their responsibilities more seriously.

Imagine! Thousand of Japanese Americans with no evidence whatsoever of their considering sabotage or espionage roaming the country at will! My god it almost sounds like...a free society!

Posted by: Michael Benson at May 12, 2005 12:06 AM
"Imagine! Thousand of Japanese Americans with no evidence whatsoever of their considering sabotage or espionage roaming the country at will! My god it almost sounds like...a free society!"

No evidence of them considering espionage? And that from an alleged graduate student in history. Tsk, tsk.

Here's some evidence right from the horse's mouth:
MAGIC intercept "May 9,1941 Message# 067:
From Los Angeles Japanese Consulate (Nakauchi)
To: Tokyo (Gaimudaijin)
...With regard to airplane manufacturing plants and other military establishments..we plan to
establish very close relations with various
organizations and in strict secrecy have them keep these military establishments under close surveillance. Through such means we hope to
...obtain accurate and detailed intelligence reports. We have already established contacts with absolutely reliable Japanee in the San Pedro and San Diego area who will keep a close watch on all shipments of airplanes and other war materials, and report the amounts and destination of such shippments. We shall maintain connection with our second generation(Nisei) who are at present in the U.S.Army, to keep us informed of various developments in the Army. We also have connections with our second generation (Nisei) working in airplane plants for intelligence purposes... " (From--Dept. of Defense 8 volume publication, "The MAGIC' Background of Pearl Harbor"--1977)

And then we have this:
February 14, 1942 from Brigadier General Mark Clark, Deputy Chief of Staff, U.S. Army-
To Mr. J.J.McCloy, Asst. SecWar
Subject "Enemy Aliens on the West Coast"
G-2 Inclosure Info Bul No.6--"Japanese Espionage"
Para.6--Conclusions: "Their espionage net containing Japanese aliens, first and second generation Japanese and other nationals is now thoroughly organized and working underground."

And from Branch Intelligence Office-Eleventh Naval District, Los Angeles--16 January 1942--Japanese Question , Report on:
"...That of the Japanese-born residents, the large majority are at least passively loyal to the United States. That is, they would knowingly do nothing whatever to the injury of the United States, but at the same time would not do anything to the injury of Japan. Also most of the remainder would not engage in active sabotage or insurrection, but might well do surreptitious observation work for Japanese interests if given a convenient opportunity. That, however, there are among the Japanese both alien and United States citizens, certain individuals, either deliberately placed by the Japanese govenement or actuated by a fanatical loyalty to that coutnry, who would act as saboteurs or agents...the most potentially dangerous element of all are those American citizens of Japanese ancestry who have spent the formative years of their lives, from 10 to 20, in Japan and have returned to the United States to claim their legal American citizenship within the last few years. These people are essentially and inherently Japanese and may have been deliberately sent back to the United States by the Japanese government to act as agents. In spite of their legal citizenship and the protection aforede them by the Bill of Rights, they should be looked upon as enemy aliens..."

And then, of course, let's not overlook the famouns Tachibana spy ring broken by the FBI and Naval Intelligence 9 months before Pearl Harbor.
That's the one about which Peter Irons (hero of the anti-internment left) wrote: "There was no question that Tachibana headed an espionage ring on the West Coast that enlisted a number of Japanese Americans, both aliens and citizens...The government has refused to release its Tachibana file, and the names of the espionage agents remain unknown." [Irons-"Justice at War."]

Bill,

The claim "thousands of Japanese..." indicates that there were thousands of Japanese in internment camps (woops no, sorry Bill "evacuation centers") with no evidence at all of their comitting espionage. I'll make this one easy for you Bill, if you can find evidence directly linking say, 20,000 of the incarcerated (using your warped terminology "evacuated") Japanese and Japanese Americans I'll give you a cookie. Otherwise my claim stands.

Posted by: Michael Benson at May 14:

"The claim "thousands of Japanese..." indicates that there were thousands of Japanese in internment camps..."

OOPS. No, Michael. Only 16,000 Japanese enemy aliens were in U.S. "internment camps." And that included the 5,000 plus Japanese-American dual citizens after they had renounced their U.S. citizenship and requested expatriation to fight for Japan. There were approx 110,000 other PJAs (enemy alien and citizens) evacuated to the ten relocation centers. They were not interned.

"...if you can find evidence directly linking say, 20,000 of the incarcerated (using your warped terminology "evacuated") Japanese and Japanese Americans I'll give you a cookie. Otherwise my claim stands."

How about the 18,000 at Tule Lake? Thousands were known to have enemy sympathies (see below) but their individual identities had to be checked out which couldn't be done overnight. As it later turned out after weeding through the evacuees, some 18,000 ended up at the Tule Lake Segregation Center for disloyals after their loyalties to the U.S. had been brought into serious question by their actions before and after the evacuation and because of numerous failures to swear a simple oath of loyalty to the U.S.

As the 1997 Dept. of Interior (NPS) Special History Study (Vol.2) on Manzanar noted: "The great bulk of the non-affirmative answers (on the loyalty question) came from the citizen group. Approximately 26.3 percent of the male citizens and 15 percent of the female citizens failed to provide unqualified affirmative answers." Not a very good record, wouldn't you agree?

This from Military Intelligence Division, Honolulu on 14 October 1941: (MID 336.8 Japan)
Subject: JAPANESE EX-SERVICEMEN'S ORGANIZATION

Originally Classified CONFIDENTIAL

"1. Zaibei Heimusai (Japanese Military Service Men League)....There are 7,200 members in northern California, Washington, Orgeon, and Utah. Each member gives $1 to a Japanese war fund, and others engaged in intelligence activities. This includes military age nisei as well as Japanese aliens. Y650,000 sent to Japan as of May 1941.

"2. Imperial Comradship Society (Japanese Ex-Service Men League...This society raised fund of Y1,000,000 at the request of Finance Minister, Mr. Ikeda, through Yokohama Specie Bank in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

"These two organizations are the same in nature. It is further stated that these two organizations have pledged to do sabotage (railroads and harbors) in the states mentioned above in time of emergency....Sixty nine local units of these two organizations are said to be carrying on activities."

Distribution: MID, Washington, FBI Honolulu, ONI Honolulu, File

UPGRADED UNCLASSIFIED ON 1 May 1988

Oh, and as for the, as you put it,"incarceration" here's what one enemy alien Japanese evacuee had to say about the Poston relocation center:

"The camp was not the prison I had expected it to be....At first there was a token stretch of barbed wire fence around the camp but it was gone in a few months...There was indeed no need for fences or armed guards...No evacuees would desire to break out...As far as I could see all the (residents) soon found their new life more or less satisfactory under the circumstances. For what purpose, then, would anyone consider leaving the dwelling where the U.S. govenment guaranteed them food, shelter, and clothing (with a monthly allowance of seven dollars per person). ["An Enemy Among Friends," Kiyoaki Murata--1991--Kodansha International,Ltd. printed in Japan]

hey, i was looking for raceism against japanese americans and this was a perfect example for it! i believe that FDR was a great president and i know that all presidents make mistakes but this one just takes the cake!